Not prolife specifically but an attack on the Church

There’s a profoundly anti-Catholic article at the personal blog
Lez Get Real
of A Gay Girl’s View of the World.

Meet Timothy Dolan… Archbishop of New York and Papal Bovine Scatologist

I responded to two wildly anti-Catholic comments and a bit of an ongoing dialog follows there and has continued here in the comments.  While frustratingly inconclusive I hope and pray it is fruitful.  It is a real exercise in humility for me.

  1. elaygee says:

    Catholicism is an unholy evil which must be fought at every turn. Run by cult leaders who live off the earnings of their poor followers.

  2. Jason says:

    What do you expect from a pagan cult that was started when their leader, Constantine, made a deal with the pagan god Christus to convert the whole empire to his cult if he helped him slaughter his enemies? Sounds more like a deal to be made with the devil than the One called Jesus doesn’t it? He then created the bible to make sure it conformed to his message of control. We still live with this evil in every form of Christianity.

  3. Matt says:

    April 9, 2009 at 9:14 pmYou two are hard to understand.

    elaygee, this very article notes “a gigantic network of 10 colleges and universities, hundreds of schools, social service agencies, and nine hospitals that treat about 1 million people annually.” Where is the evil in that? I don’t see you railing against the public school system or the protestant churches with their even higher instance of teacher and clergy abusers. Is it because most of the abuse there is heterosexual? How can that be?

    Jason, What even remotely supportable history have you been reading that tells you that? There is more independently-verifiable historical evidence for the writing of the new Testament of the Bible in the 1st century than there is for the entire existence of Socrates or William Shakespeare. For instance I can give you historical (extra-Biblical) evidence that the word “Christian” was used to describe the followers of Christ 3 centuries before Constantine.

I’ll say this just so it gets said.  God made all people.  Some are attracted to people of the same-sex.  (and some  have disordered attractions to all manner of things).  That is not bad or good; only acting on these disordered attractions is wrong.  This doesn’t in anyway affect the Church’s – or any decent thinking person’s – love for them as God’s created handiwork.  The Church uniformly tells us also to absolutely love these people.

21 Responses to Not prolife specifically but an attack on the Church

  1. Paula Brooks says:

    I prefer to think of my article as being more anti hypocrite… with the hypocritical subject of the article just happening to be a Catholic.

    We also call out evangelical hypocrites as well

  2. Laura says:

    Paula, your real beef with Abp. Dolan is stated when you identify him in your blog as “the darling of the anti-gay … crowd.” The rest is just window dressing to try to distract people from the real issue.

    I’ve said it before, commenting on your blog: the Catholic Church operates out of a wholly different ethos, a different paradigm from the GLBT community. You aren’t going to change that paradigm.

    You say (as a movement) that you demand tolerance; what you are demanding, however, is approval, and it is not going to be forthcoming.

    Moreover, to condemn someone for not agreeing with your ethos is hardly “tolerant,” in itself. The intolerance, the overt hostility, is the GLBT community’s, not the Church’s.

    I don’t expect to persuade you, but I do ask you to think about it, okay?

  3. Christine says:

    Indeed, as Matt mentioned, the Church’s teachings on homosexuality have been distorted.

    For clarification, here is what the Church teaches on homosexuality. I applaud Archbishop for supporting church teachings.

    From the Catechism:

    2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

  4. Paula Brooks says:

    Laura I don’t give a damned if you accept me or not…. and I think you thinking I even need your tolerance is pure arrogance on your part.

    what I want is for you to keep your damned religion in your church and your home and out of mine…

    and I want you to stop trying to keep me from all the rights you have as a productive taxpaying American Citizen because you arrogantly think your religion says you can.

    what you did not like is you and your church got called out as not having the moral authority to even be making any kind of moral judgment on me or anyone else because to do so makes you a bunch of hypocrites if you don’t get to re-write the true story about what has gone on in your church.

    I am saying… You need fix your own house before you try to fix someone else’s.

  5. Laura says:

    Paula –
    You may not care, but I do. I do accept you – If I didn’t, I wouldn’t bother to discuss this with you at all; it wouldn’t be worth the effort or the time.

    But I’ve got to point out the contradiction of your statement, here – you want the Church to stay out of your business… but you want to change the Church’s position on your business.

    I want to suggest to you that perhaps, if you were as feisty and independent as you want to tell me you are, you wouldn’t need to fight the Church so hard?

  6. Matt says:

    I have every right to say what I’ve said, as does Laura as do you. However you’ve raised this to a shouting match.

    My religion is not damned nor is it in your house.

    You have all the “rights” that Laura does and that I do. Someone (possibly you yourself?) is lying to you.

    My Church – as you can see from Christine’s post above – make no moral judgment on you. It declares homosexual attraction as fundamentally disordered; then asks – requires – each of us to treat every person with respect as God’s intrinsically valuable creation.

    I am not a hypocrite. I myself declare my failures. I do not tie up burdens for you or anyone else that I don’t take on myself. I then routinely screw them up but that doesn’t make me a hypocrite; it makes me human.

    I write the truth as best as I know it. It you catch me in a re-write I ask you to point it out; without name-calling.

  7. Paula Brooks says:

    I believe your churches policies on homosexual attraction are fundamentally disordered and they are in my house, because I don’t have the same rights as you… that is not unless I live in Vermont, Mass, Conn, or Iowa.

  8. Paula Brooks says:

    and your bishops want to keep it that way…

  9. Laura says:

    Paula, The Church says (rightly) that homosexuality is against Natural Law because (1) men and women were created in God’s image; our masculine-feminine union reflects His nature as male-male or female-female cannot do, and (2) homosexual union cannot procreate. You have every legal right that I, as a single woman, possess. Any rights I might gain by being married can easily be replicated now – power of attorney, health care power of attorney, a will, etc. all provide the “legal benefits” that a marriage does.

    As for “your bishops want to keep it that way,” which I just moderated to approve – think of this, please: “I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the house of Israel” (Ex. 20:2); and “I am the Lord your God. You shall not do as they do in the land of Egype, where you dwelt, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You shall not walk in their statues. You shall do my ordinances and keep my statues and walk in them. I am the Lord your God. You shall therefore keep my statutes and my ordinances… I am the Lord your God.”

    The Judeo-Christian ethos is articulated in these passages: The Ten Commandments and the Levitical law. Our lives are to reflect the integrity and the distinction of our God. That is why the Catholic Church maintains integrity on sexual issues and on life issues in all their dimensions.

    You don’t have to believe it. If you want to adopt for yourself, of your own volition, a different ethos, that is your privilege. However, I say again, it is extremely intolerant and hostile to insist that everyone else kowtow to accomodate and legitimate your particular, self-centered, genital-centered ethos.

    A personal note: I’ve seen up close and personal, in the macrocosm of my own family, the damage the homosexual agenda is doing to our culture. As long as I have breath, I will fight the normalization of the lifestyle into my community and into this culture. Do what you wish in private, but you seek to destroy people’s lives and souls when you seek to impose approval of it in public.

  10. Paula Brooks says:

    You know this fight did not start because I came here looking for a fight… it started because you came to LGR to push your message to people who really think what you are saying is nothing but homophobic nonsense… again you brought to our house first.

    But there is nothing rightly about what your church has to say about gays and people are starting to see that… they saw it in Vermont and DC just this past week.

    And if your bishops want to engage in politics understand this… after Proposition 8 the day of the nice gay is over… we are going to play politics like they were played on us… and if your bishops want to get into this… so be it… be ready for us to point out that they have no moral authority at all to make this call and be ready for more about why we think this to be the case.. and well understand your leaders have given us plenty of dirt to throw, it will be your church that will be diminished in this fight, but your church can not diminish us anymore then it already has.

    And you had also better understand this… As long as I have breath, I will fight the intrusion of your church into my life and the lives of all gay people.

    But in the end we will win.. because this is American and not the Vatican we are in the right.

  11. Paula Brooks says:

    and personal note … I have seen far too up close and personal a molesting priest and a church that did everything it could to cover up for him.

  12. Laura says:

    Paula, Unfortunately, you’re right that some leaders of the church (Boston’s Cardinal Law, for one) really made a muck-up of things. A lot of us are angry about it.

    Also, I mentioned a close family situation. It also involved molestation/seduction of a young boy by a respected adult figure. However, that man was not a priest, or even a Catholic. The damage was still catastrophic. I am sorry for your friend, too.

  13. Paula Brooks says:

    Laura I know I am right… and it is not just Cardinal Law that is your problem… but Tim Dolan as well.

    Your bishops want to get into politics but that is not a wise move on their parts and instead of coming to my house to tell us how disordered your church thinks gays are…

    I would be telling the bishops to mind the business of the church and stay the hell out of politics. Politics is a rough business and being a church will not give them a free pass anymore.

    Just look to the Mormons if you need an example…

  14. Laura says:

    Yeah, the Mormons took some ugly stuff in CA with Prop 8, didn’t they? That was a shameful demonstration of what the gay community feels about its rights. I’d be ashamed to be even named as part of that population who committed such acts of violence. wide-scale temper-tantrum, Paula. Shameful conduct.

    If the Catholic bishops of California had been honoring their Vocations, there would have been a lot more opposition to gay marriage – and the Mormons would not only have had more company, they would also have had more protection.

    The thing is, Paula – and I’m frustrated because I’m not even able to show you the view from behind my eyeballs (if I could, you’d say, “Laura, I don’t agree, but I see it.”) – the Church does have authority in faith and morals.

    I’ve been giving this a lot of thought the past 24 hours since seeing your blog, trying to put things in a historical context. When Christianity began, it was the minority view, a small community of eccentrics who believed this Jesus person rose from the dead – but they lived radically chaste and moral lives that even caught the attention, the bewilderment and sometimes the respect of the Romans who were observing this odd cult. I’ve tried to think of what right we have, even now, to insist our system be the universal one.

    What I’ve come up with is not simple. The Judeo Christian morality is the basis of the most fair laws in all of history. You may not like feeling as if you’re being discriminated against for being gay, but the fact is, Paula, even the homosexual-dominated ancient world didn’t attempt to define marriage as anything but between a man and a woman. And that woman was never more than property to add to the resources of her husband and to be disposed of as he wished.

    There’s a lot of whining and complaining about Judaism’s patriarchy, which Christianity perpetuated, but that patriarchy elevated the status of women in society to unprecedented heights.

    Homosexuality is primarily, fundamentally misogynistic – it’s not about a rejection of women as the more desirable sex partner, it’s a fundamental attitude that women are not worthy of being true spiritual equals. My close family member boasts of his lesbian friends, but behind their backs (if he has not changed radically since I last saw him) he ridicules them and calls them “idiots” just as he does other women. He thinks the unique gifts and insights and strengths of woman are nonsense. And it’s not just him – I’ve seen varying degrees of the same nasty attitude from every gay man I’ve ever worked with, been neighbors with, etc.

    The ultimate expression of that misogyny is what we are fighting in this blog – the idea that women are nothing more than fetal containers, and that those babies have to be ripped from the womb via abortion in order to garner some artificial “bovine scatological” idea of “equality” for their mothers.

    I don’t want to give in to live in that sort of world, Paula. I don’t want my daughters thinking that’s the real and “normal” attitude to have. I don’t want them to suffer through being thought an idiot by the person who truly ought to love and cherish them.

    Some of our bishops are not nice people. Some of them don’t understand the nature of their Vocation and are working in opposition to it. But most are good and decent men. You now my bishop and spoke well of him in your blog to Matt; yet Bishop Burbidge is outspoken in defense of the preservation of marriage between one man and one woman – the heterosexual monogamy model begun by the Hebraic Law. This is his right and it is his obligation as a bishop of the Church.

    I once heard a Quaker speak on the subject. Normally very liberal in social matters, this gentleman shook his head as we spoke. “I want everyone to be happy,” he said, “But the fact is, everyone can’t be. It’s either the 3-5% of the population who are gay who are going to be unhappy, or it’s going to be the other more than 90% of the population who are not gay. For the best good of society, I have to oppose gay marriage.”

    There’s so much more I want to say, but it’s Easter morning and I have to go get ready to do some singing. I’m sorry I’m doing such an inadquate job of showing you what I feel so deeply. Peace of Christ to you, Paula, this Easter day.

  15. Paula Brooks says:

    That kind of behavior tends to be the result when you piss on people rights Laura…

    How many “good” catholics joined the IRA when it happen to then in Northern Ireland?

  16. Paula Brooks says:

    And Laura I do see the view from your eyes… and it in my book it is called bigotry.

  17. Laura says:

    You keep talking about rights – but you still haven’t replied to Matt’s query: What rights have you been denied? And why would a rational person believe that an evil (violence) can obtain a good?

  18. Paula Brooks says:

    I have explained it, but you are so hung up in your dogma you do no get it.

    Why would a rational person believe that an evil (violence) can obtain a good? Is denying people you don’t know their rights because of a religious dogma those people don’t share with you a rational act?

    Did the IRA not finally bomb the the oppressors of the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland to the peace table?

    I’d say the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland is finally equal because of them and their evil acts…

  19. Matt says:

    As far as the IRA there is a better model. The Catholic identity of Poland in the 1970s (and for the 1000 years preceeding) allowed them to strike for peace and defeat the Warsaw Pact.

    The rest I will leave alone; its seems wise to let it rest for a day or two.

  20. Laura says:

    And I was thinking of MLK’s use of “Soul Force” in the ’60s, and the influence of the (pacifist) Quakers on the abolition movement in the 18th and 19th centuries. Since Ireland’s “peace” is so fragile and still-tenuous, it seems to me that those victories achieved through violence don’t hold very well, while those that involve changing minds and hearts through love do.

    And I agree things need to rest a bit – but I still want to know what rights are being denied.

  21. Paula Brooks says:

    Matt…sometimes peaceful methods work…. you can thank God for that.

    Sometimes they don’t… and you thank men that say they know, without a doubt, gods will for that…

    In Poland they fought against men who said there was no god at all… In Ireland they fought against men that said their way was the only way to find God and if you did not believe that way then you would be a second class person…

    Laura …it took both MLK and Malcolm X to get Barack Obama to the White House. He would not be there if both had not existed.

    There are over a 1,000 legal and economic rights that are conferred upon married couples in the U.S. and when people cannot marry, they are denied all the emotional and social benefits and responsibilities of marriage as well.

    Now Laura darling God made me gay… that was not a choice on my part and it is something I can never stop being…

    However, you, Matt and everyone else who are members of your church do choose to be Catholic… that is something you can stop being whenever you want… But you think because you made that choice…. you now have the right to deny me those rights…

    And you need to think again, because that kind of thinking creates IRA’s.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: